An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supporter

I had an interesting conversation on here with an Obama supporter which I have cut and paste for your viewing pleasure:

"like much of your thinking but... (none / 0)

How is Obama centist?  Who are his "right wing" ecomomic advisors?

You make some assumptions - where did you get that information?

My take is that Obama is committed to the same progressive values at Edwards and both have done a lot to promote ethics reform.  I think that is THE issue: getting lobbyists money out of Washington.  I think the Clintons have tried to paint Obama with the same brush as her - but its not true.  Its pure demagoguery.  

Check it out for yourself - visit the FEC site - its easy.  you can see where candidates get their money.

"Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:56:50 AM EST
[ Reply to This |  none0- hide1- troll2- mojo ]  

By the way (none / 0)

Edwards would be fine with me - I would love a brokered convention - lets get it all out in the open.

Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 12:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This |  none0- hide1- troll2- mojo ]  

Re: I like much of your thinking but... (none / 0)

look up his advisors.

by bruh21 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:02:25 AM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]  

you made an accusation (none / 0)

back it up"

My question is why doesn't this supporter know this, and I wonder to what degree are many of his supporters like this? Basing their judgement on general feelings about Obama's biography. Is this the American liberal electorate now? Just another version of a faith based community?

For the record, Obama's lead economic advisor is Austan Goolsbee.

Discussed here by Real Clear Politics:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article s/2007/10/obamas_curious_economic_advise .html

He comes from the Chicago School of Economic thought. One of the most conservative in the country. The school of thought that has so infected law-- that an entire methodology for practicing law law and economics- exists.

Why didn't this poster know this? The broader question- how many of his supporters do no know who constitute his advisors?

I really don't expect to change outcomes regarding candidates. Just trying to understand voters better at this point. Trying to reengage thinking. Especially liberal ones.

As Merbex writes:

"Whenever Obama signals that he isn't as progressive as they all thought - Reagan interview,Rezko affiliation,McClurkin, they sit silent or they lash out that these things are even being discussed."

I've seen this lashing out regarding Krugman, the Reagan comment (reading Kid Oakland on this was breathe taking to watch someone who was once so liberal try to spin it as "Clinton does it worse.") and regarding my concerns over why I would want to have a brokered convention.

I suppose ultimately Merbex's rant was right going forward after this primary:

"There is a lesson here and that is there is no point in jumping on anyone's bandwagon until proper research has been done about the candidate you support, or to watch as some early appearances before voters and reporters shows you what type of a candidate they will be on the long haul."

But perhaps this is an impossibility given how quickly people become vested and circle the wagons. Given that we are a faith based nation.



Display:


Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

I'm not sure I have any idea who Edwards' economic advisors are.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:50:21 AM EST

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

Maybe thats true, but you aren't arguing with me telling me that I am wrong about who the advisors are either. My central thesis really isn't about who the advisors are- but the projection about how I must be wrong about who Obama's advisors are.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:52:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

Thesis?

I think thats overstating it a tad.


Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Three Points (none / 0)

1) Just teaching at a predominantly conservative University doesn't necessarily make one a conservative.

2) Goolsbee may not be a bleeding heart liberal, but he's further to left than the vast majority of economists. Goolsbee is a moderate, and is certainly no more conservative than former Clinton Treasury Secretary and Hillary endorser Robert Rubin.

2) Why are you sourcing arch-conservative George Will on this issue, of all people?


by HatchInBrooklyn on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Three Points (none / 0)

1) It's not merely the fact he teaches at a conservative school- it's the policies that Obama are formulating which no one who is objective can claim isn't the most conservative of the three. Again, if you are objective l ook at the plans in conparison to prior thought to this election cycle.

2) See 1). I don't care who endorses whom. I care who is going to be the chief advisors and what I've seen in terms of what the candidates have actually proposed.

3) I have other sources- the link was provided to prove a greater point. I think reading the article, and their endorsement of his advisor should tell you something- again if you were open to listening.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Am Open To Listening (none / 0)

I'm just pointing out that you're drawing a mostly false distinction. In the broad spectrum of economic ideas, the advisers and policy ideas of the three Democratic candidates really are not far apart at all. The fact that you're relying on a George Will column to prove your point only underscores the underlying dishonesty of the argument.


by HatchInBrooklyn on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:32:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Am Open To Listening (none / 0)

yes, i know thats the argument online and it makes it easier for people to avoid conflict, but sorry, I don't buy that argument. It's just a cw.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Am Open To Listening (none / 0)

by the way- to be clear- its not simply the policies, but the policies in context of what centers of gravity are influencing and shifting the candidates. this must all be contextualized regarding claims about the candidate. ie, obama the progressive versus the centrist campaign he is running etc.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

Obama Girls aren't interested in the Messiah's advisors.
Heck! One of them co-writes op-eds with a PNAC founder!!
Oh wait - how many Obama Girls even KNOW about PNAC?
how many care that Obama voted against capping interest rates on credit cards?  the same credit cards with balances for college tuition.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

If you recall, there was a pretty big discussion about economic advisors on this site sometime around June/July on this site.  The discussion originated with Matt Stoller's comments specifically aimed at showing that John Edwards' economic advisors are not very progressive.  I don't remember the exact names of the advisors, but later on I'll go through the archives to link to that interesting discussion.

Here is an interesting link to comments from 3 big-name economic advisors of the 3 candidates:

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2007/08 /06/1/economic-advisors-of-three-leading -democratic-presidential-campaigns


by georgep on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

If Edwards economic plans demonstrated that these advisors influenced him I would be more concerned with it. My issue with the poster was a) he didn't know that Obama's advisor was right leaning (and attacked me for bringing it up) and b) that contextually Reagan, healthcare etc- this might be an important issue to  know in terms of accountability for what Obama means since its often argued he's more progressive than how he's speaking now.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

regarding Edwards & economists, see this link: (none / 0)

The Washington Note


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

which links to this... (none / 0)

The Caucus

"This campaign has been uniquely serious about carefully framing policy alternatives," Mr. Galbraith said in an interview....

With inequality now greater than it has been since the 1920's, Mr. Edwards had a stronger commitment to making sure wages rose and poverty fell, Mr. Galbraith said.

Mr. Edwards was the first Democrat to release a detailed health-care plan, and the plan Mrs. Clinton later released was very similar to the Edwards plan. Mr. Edwards also favors letting the Bush tax cuts expire for families making more than $200,000, while Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama have a $250,000 cutoff.

"This would be a more activist presidency," Mr. Galbraith said. "The focus would be on what the major goals are - climate change, infrastructure, employment - and not on what the constraints are."

He added: "One of the things the country desperately needs is a government that's willing to face those questions and not duck them. And, broadly speaking, that's the feeling I have about Edwards."



Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 01:16:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (2.00 / 1)

by the way- i will be doing a broader diary on the deeper subject- accountability, which I hope to discuss on a deeper level with the failing of all three top candidates on FISA. I don't expect people to know this information, but when presented with it, the healthy response in terms of accountability isn't to attack the messenger as is all to often the case with these candidates. This deeply concerns me. There can be no progress without accountability.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:59:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

broader
deeper
deeper
top
healthy
deeply

Slash and burn politics baby! Say anything do anything lie cheat steal railroad the opposition into submission: CLINTON FORMULA FOR 2008.
by crackityjones on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Interested in Information? (none / 0)

Here's an objective overview from months back on all of the candidates' economic advisors, from Marketwatch. Of course, things change as time progresses, but it's instructive to read an article that isn't based on putting forward an agenda, at least, like George Will was doing:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/pr esidential-hopefuls-scramble-bring-econo mic/story.aspx?guid=%7B25FEEB56-2CCD-424 C-9AB0-0A1F5F423CDC%7D


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:17:50 PM EST

Re: Interested in Information? (none / 0)

What's instructive is to place what the candidates have been saying in the context of who is advising them. I know many of you like to deny parts of facts, but you are in teh wrong diary for that. What economic proposals have obama been making, and who is advising him? putting two plus two together rather than just looking at 2 is how I end up with four.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

This isn't a question about whether Obama himself is progressive. It's about what influences surround him. This comes out of a diary I wrote about why I want a broker convention to push a more progressive agenda and try to have a seat at the table of who advises whoever becomes President. When I wrote that diary, I was told by the poster whom I cite that there is no indication that Obama is centrist. The advisor by itself doesn't per se prove the point. but in the context of all else is know- his healthcare plan, his reagan comment, etc-- this is why at the very least he's running a centrist campaign. None of these things by themselves are smoking guns. They are circumstantial evidence. Most cases and  most of life isn't built on smoking guns. I simply want people to hold these people accountable by making sure about who surrounds them and we can hit the ground running with regard to pushing a progressive rather than centrist agenda.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:27:36 PM EST

Must respond because I'm mentioned in the diary (2.00 / 1)

I was speaking of activists who I know and am friends with who could not understand why I wasn't jumping on the Obama bandwagon last March( could have been April need to check my calendar).

At that time I already knew he had supported Joe Lieberman, Tammy Duckworth over Christine Cegallis(spelling), and I knew despite the popular impression in the public that he was against the war, he hadn't even supported Murtha's plan for redeployment.

His rheteric was not reaching me either - "ending partisan bickering" giving us a "new kind of politics" - I was watching the governor I had worked so hard to elect( Patrick) get rolled by entrenched politicians in MA at the State House - he too wanted to "change the tone". The reality was, those entrenched politicians and interests aren't going to change unless you take them on.

So I kept going up to NH and managed to see all 8 candidates( Edwards 6 times, Obama 5 times, Clinton 3 times, Richardson 3 times, Dodd, Biden Kucinich and Gravel 1 time each); Obama with the Peru trade deal, missing Kyl Lieberman, moveon vote, just wasn't registering on my progressive meter at all as a matter of fact the arrow kept pointing to the right :)

What I noticed was that those that got on board early had made an emotional and financial investment in him and as Drew Westen writes that usually means that they had developed a "partisan brain"about him. Nothing I, or anyone else who was either an Edwards supporter or an undecided progressive  voter would say could get through to them.

They refused to discuss anything that challenged their view of him as a progressive.

Look, I wish Edwards had voted differently on a score of issues, I wish he hadn't worked for the hedge fund. I have to make a judgement on whether his "change of heart is sincere" - it seems to me as if it is. If something should come to light that would change my perception, I hope I would weigh that new information carefully and be willing to change my vote if the information warrants it. So far, it's Obama that keeps giving reason after reason for his progressive supporters to change their vote and they haven't - confirming Westen's theory about a partisan brain.

The link you gave about Obama's economic advisors is another eye opener that is important but technically useless to give to a person who supports Obama - there is so much out there that challenges his presentation as a progressive that one more thing isn't going to do much.

What is hurting him is that as each primary and caucus draws near( since Iowa) the general public which historically are late deciders are getting this information abouthim aand are questioning the very foundations of what he is running on - Rezko?looks like old politics to me, partisan bickering - the back and forth with Clinton looks like what? His record is getting a closer examination too and the voters are responding.


by merbex on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:31:54 PM EST

Re: Must respond (none / 0)

this is what I mean by contextualizing and discussing his candidacy with some objectivyt not ending with 2002 but to the present and how he has campaigned. people want to present him as the anti clinton and then make excuses when he is not. i know i am not going to change any minds here. i just posted this out of frustration with the person in complete denial about my point about the advisor. he or she acted as if i had made up what i was saying without any reason to say it and kept asking me to 'prove it' when all it required of him or her was a google search of economic advisor. the partisan brain is what i mean by faith based. all of this language is pretty much saying the same things about voter behavior to me.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

i look at hillary clintons foriegn policy experience during the clinton administration that she says she had, and I remember Rwanda.

I was 15 when I saw someone murdered on television. She did nothing, and Clinton played stupid while hundreds of thousands of Tutsis were slaughtered.


Who killed our leaders? Who holds our reins? Who is our enemy?
by dem sam on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:42:38 PM EST

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

excuse me but- huh?


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Interesting Conversation with an Obama Supp (none / 0)

ps

a) not a clinton supporter

b) diary  not about clinton


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me like Goolsbee (none / 0)

Here is an interesting interview (audio podcast) with Goolsbee by Megan McArldle.

http://www.theatlantic.com/audio/mcardle .mhtml

Ezra Klein evidently has an article about Goolsbee due out soon (which he mentions in passing here).

From my perspective, Goolsbee is one of Obama's best assets. I don't think traditional labels like "progressive" or "conservative" are very helpful here. Goolsbee is clearly interested in making the tax burden more fair and adding some balance to the distribution of benefits and burdens in our enononmy. To that extent, he is progressive. On the other hand, he is also much more sympathetic to market-based solutions than many on the left.

In any case, I do think it is important to know the candidates' advisors. It's just that I have a far more positive opinion of Goolsbee than the diarist does. And, it may be worth reminding some folks that Edwards' tax plan is based heavily on Goolsbee's work and actually cites Goolsbee.  


by DPW on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:53:33 PM EST

Re: Me like Goolsbee (none / 0)

That's your personal view. ANd yeah, tell tale sign of a problem with being progressive and favoring centrism (which was the discussion I was having in the other dary) is when someone says they don't like labels like progressive and conservative. Good for you. Do others know who he is and do your fellow supporters agree with you about progressive being just a label?


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me like Goolsbee (none / 0)

My point is that these pseudo-intellectual categories like "progressive" fail to capture the diversity of thought in political and economic philosophy. I would never call myself a centrist or progressive. I do call myself a "liberal," but that label doesn't entail any particular economic worldview (other than, perhaps, an egalitarian view of distributive justice).

As far as other Obama supporters and what they know or believe, I would assume that they are no more or less informed or monolithic than Edwards or Clinton supporters. Some may like these labels more than I do, but ideally they realize the problems associated with such rigid classifications in political and economic thought.


by DPW on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 01:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me like Goolsbee (none / 0)

your point is that you don't understand what is meant by progressive when you call it pseduo intellectual. again, i am curious whether other supporters would be interested to hear or know this and trying to change teh subject is pretty much par for the course when it comes to obama- do you people think you can actually get through both the primary and general doing this? nevermind, yeah, you do.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 01:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me like Goolsbee (none / 0)

Listen, I'm literally heading out the door, so I wish I could respond more substantially. But, you're the one who is placing people in these categories, so I think it would be helpful for you to define more clearly what your categorical ascriptions entail. Obviously, political philosophers and economists think it is worthwhile to write long books describing and defending their ideas. They don't just say "I'm a progressive." And, that's the problem with posts like yours. My advice is to read the books and articles and ignore these broad labels.

As far as the psuedo-intellectual status of the progressive label, I would just note that I have rarely (almost never) seen a political philosopher describe his view as "progressive." Yet, I see it applied as a poorly-defined political standard all over the blogosphere, which gets a little tiresome frankly.


by DPW on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 01:21:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Getting lobbyists money out of DC (none / 0)

uhm-okay.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 01:31:19 PM EST

Re: You think that if "bad influences" (none / 0)

I think you need to pretend thats what I am saying to justify your own thought processes.


by bruh21 on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 01:51:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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